Category: Parent Talk
Hello, Everyone:
A while back, I was sitting in the waiting room of a clinic next to a young lady in her 20s, and I observed many disturbing behavioral aspects. Besides being an unhappy woman, interestingly I heard her tell her daughter. "Your father is a mean man. He doesn't love you or me. He loves his other woman. Now, repete what I told you, how is your father?" To which the six year old girl tiredly replied: "My father is a mean man, and he doesn't love me or you and he loves his other woman. Why not, mommy?" Mom went on saying: Stop asking questions, and repete what I tell you! now say, "I hate daddy!" To which she repeted: "I hate daddy because he doesn't love me or mommy because he loves his other woman. ok Ok mommy, I'm hungry now." Before mom could continue insisting, they called them in. This brought tears to my eyes, as I was in complete disbelief. I doubt parents do the exact thing to their children, but why do you think children are put in the middle of their arguements, weather sepparated or getting divorced?
I have experienced this, and I still see it happening in my family today. I can't speak for my stepfather, but I assume it's because he is still angry at my mom for cheating on him and leaving him, even after five years. My mom did some wrong things, but there has to be a point where you need to just say fuck it and let go of the past. And, keep the kids out of that crap.
Been with us since the 70s at least. And in the 70s, the teachers would tell the students it was just the best way for moms to work out their problems. And I had plenty friends who looked like their father and caught hell for it from the mother. I think it sucks, but what you gonna do, I guess.
This sort of thing is not ok. Someone very close to me was caught inbetween two battling parents as a child and suffers repercussions from it till this day. I think to resort to this sort of behavior signifies that you're weak as a person, and you put zero forethought in to being a parent. How dare you, as a parent, pit your kid against the other person who is equal to you in his or her mind.
Again, I chock it up to shitty communication both between the parents themselves and between them and their children. The type of parents who wil resort to talking shit about each other to the kid shouldn't have had the kid in the first place because they aren't much more mature than teenagers.
I don't care what happens between me and my partner: I'll be realistic here, and say that if he ever messes up and we end up having to go our separate ways because we can't work things out, I'll make a point to ensure that his relationship with our son stands strong. He's the kind of father to our son that neither of us had as kids, so I'll be damned if I ever try taking that away from my kid on account of some stupid adult drama.
I love that thought Writer.
It is a sad state for people to do this, but it happens all the time.
Kids will side with the mother in situations naturally, so it is really important for her to show love for the man that was her lover once.
Being that this was a clinic, I wonder if you could have suggested the lady needed some help to the staff? I know it wasn't your call, but I just wonder.
Sad.
Yeh it's unbelievable reallly. As others have said, it's all about anger and jealousy.
If I was unlucky enough to hear such an exchange, I'd find it extremely difficult to bite my tongue.
Wow, how terribly sad...
Oh geez, that is bad. Wow.
Sounds to me like the best way to hurt the other person, turn the kid against him. Sadly though it won't hurt him nearly as much as its going to screw up that poor child.
First of all I want to add that men do this too. Men, women and sometimes both of them will do this to their children, not only during or after a seperation or divorce, but also during a marriage. It happens in gay and lesbian couples as well. I think that some small degree of this is inevidable in divorce situations, but it is the parents' responsibility to recognize the tendency towards this and try to minimize the behavior and the negative effects when the behavior does crop up. We are not perfect, and we are not always going to be able to control every negative emotion towards our partner, in and out of marriage, but we can take steps to prevent this as much as possible and to deal with the situation and to talk with our children after the fact. We have the right to vent and to seek comfort from journaling, talking to friends and family and seeking counsiling, and as careful as we are, it is quite possible that our children will stumble upon our journalistic catharsis, overhear a comment to a therapist or catch part of a telephone conversation. In that instance it is important to echnowledge the feeling, honesty is still best, and then clarify and elaborate for your child. Pretending that you still love your seperated partner if you don't is not productive or healthy. I.E. "I just don't love your father anymore. He did some mean things to me and I did some mean things to him, but we both still love you. Just because daddy doesn't want to live with mommy anymore does not mean that he doesn't want to live with you. He misses you and we will make sure you have time to spend with him." or "I know you heard me calling your daddy a jerk when I was talking on the phone yesterday. I really do think that sometimes he does act like a jerk. So do I, and so do you. Everyone does good and bad things. What daddy did to me really made me angry and sad, but he never meant to hurt you, and I know that even though he doesn't really feel like being nice to me, he will be nice to you, because he still likes you and still loves you." And so on and so forward. My husband has fairly severe PTSD as a result of his service in Iraq. There are times when he behaves very badly and I find myself muttering "jerk" or worse under my breath. And there are times when I have to tell our son things like "I'm sorry daddy acted like a jerk when he got home. He had a really stressful day and when he gets really stressed out he has a hard time controling his feelings, just like you have a hard time when you are throwing a tantrum. Daddy loves you and I know when he calms down he will come and apologize to you. Daddy has a sort of a filter that helps him keep really angry and really afraid and really sad feelings from blowing up and going all over the place, but sometimes his filter breaks, but when he's fixed it he can come and talk to you and explain how he was feeling and how he feels now." or "I know you heard mommy and daddy yelling at each other last night. Daddy was really stressed out, his filter broke again, and mommy reacted to him. I shouldn't have done that, but we all lose control sometimes. I shouldn't have called daddy a jerk. He isn't a jerk, he is a great dad and a nice person. He was acting like a jerk, but how you act is not who you are. You do bad things sometimes, like pouring the milk all over the floor on purpose, but you are not a bad boy. You see? Mommy already said sorry to daddy for calling him a jerk, and daddy said sorry to mommy for yelling. I just wanted to come and talk with you so that you'll understand better." Its a balancing act, and it can be tough, but I never lie to my son, and I own my emotions in a way that doesn't try to turn my son into my best friend, my therapist or my dumping ground for all of my negative emotions. Obviously what I'm talking about doesn't apply to drug addicts, alcoholics, physical, mental or sexual abusers, etc. If you are in a bad situation, get out and get counsiling for yourself, your child on his or her own and you two as a family. But, the techniques I'm talking about aren't just for famnilies where one parent has PTSD, TBI or other similar conditions, they can be utalized in ordinary families to help handle the fights, disagreements and ocasional bad behavior of one or both parents in a way that teaches children not to internalize the emotions of others, not to repress their own emotions and how to cope with expressing their emotions in a healthy way. I am not excusing the behavior of mothers like the one that sparked this topic, because it is not right, or healthy or safe for their children, but I would offer up two considerations. 1. When mothers don't have access to afordable, rellivant and timely counsiling services, this can often lead to their using their child as an outlet for all of their hurt, anger and depression. 2. As more and more women become single parents, enter the work place, churchs and other community organizations have smaller and smaller memberships and fewer events, and families disperse all over the US, the naturally ocurring support system that women used to rely on has broken down in a big way. Now, most women work, do not attend church or at least not regularly, have extended family that lives hours away, do not have the time or energy to participate in many if any community events and most friend relationships are conducted largely through the internet, the cell phone and hurried in-person communications on the way to work or school or while running erronds. This is also often a factor in stress put on marriages that can contribute to divorce. I monitor myself and when I feel the urge to unburdin myself on my son, I know it's time to call a friend, make an appointment with our couples therapist or to reach out and do something stress relieving and life afirming with friends or in the community, and I take those steps. Also, you can call me interfearing, but were I in that situation and overheard something that blatent, I would step in. I would speak to the mother and recommend counsiling. I would express empathy for the hurt and anger of infedelity, achnowledge the stress of single parenthood, and make it clear that her feelings are healthy natural reactions to the situation, but that her daughter is not her therapist and can not and should not be expected to help her with those feelings. I would suggest that both she and her daughter seek counsiling, and give them a resource list, (yeah, I carry some of those with me) and suggest that she can always ask her daughter for a hug if she's feeling crappy, or distract them both from their anger and pain by doing something fun together then carefully make it clear that what she is doing will have serious long term affects on her child. I find this tack very effective "I don't know your X, maybe he was a terrible aweful man, maybe not, I'm not going to comment, because I don't know you, or him, but I will tell you this, that whether or not a relationship with his daughter would be good for her and however you want to handle custity, if you dump all of these adult emotions on your daughter now, she will have a lot of trouble connecting with and trusting her husband in the future, even if he's an amazing guy, so do her and yourself a favor and get a counsilor so your daughter doesn't have to be yours." Would she listen? Maybe, probably to at least some of what I say. Would she get pissed off? Most likely. Would there be some positive benifit to my talking to her? Likely, at least in some part yes. That's just me though, can you tell I'm in a social work education program? *smile* Honestly though, I do jump in and talk to really upset people when I encounter them, and 70 or 80% of the time it has a positive effect, usually small, occasionally large.
Thank you. What a great post. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is why you'll be a great social worker.
It makes me happy to see that there are in fact some good parents, and even some that are planning to have kids seem to be on the right track. It's better than dwelling on how aweful I had it as a kid. In some ways the crap you have to put up with sometimes makes you a better person.
Wow to post nine! What a brave soul. Very concisely written. I appreciate what you had to say. I don't think I ever could've come up with something like that.. I used to mainly just try to make the daughter feel better, tell her it wasn't her, it was me.
This is heartbreaking. I know my parents never intended to do it, but sometimes I think they did put my sister and I in the middle of things during the divorce, but I'm also lucky they told us that it was not our faults and had nothing to do with us when they realized what they were doing.
That is a sad story but true.
***** to the 9th poster! you are wise :)
I agree with all of this. For my own two cents, I will say there is no way in which one can excuse themselves of that behavior. Certain, in situations where the mother or father are truly wicked people - abusing the child, or being truly distructive - it pays to ensure the child has at least a rudimentary understanding. But this was something else entirely. This was not a mother sitting down and having a heart-to-heart with her daughter. THis was a woman implanting thoughts into her impressionable little girl's mind, not to make her daughter understand, but to channel her own anger onto her daughter. This is what I get out of the situation, and it's a terrifying thought. We are all impressionable. Our experiences help shape who, and what we become throughout our lives.
so true :)
I wholeheartedly agree with the 9th poster. Your career path suits you.
Liz
All I can add to Post 9 is this still matters when the kids leave home. The daughter follows her mom in some ways and me in others. We are very different in terms of spirituality well she is and I isn't really, lol, but in a number of other ways too. But we're still together and we both have common interests for the daughter. I know once the kids are adults you can talk to them like adults, but still I find I need to keep that filter just a bit. Not that I want to demean the Chick to our daughter, but the filter just to express our differences to her without making her mom look like anything less than she is. Though my attempts are downright bumbling in comparison to Post 9 though.
This trend has actually gotten more and more common in my family since this topic was made ironically. I find it amusing that they get upset and throw a little tantrum when I won't side with them and refuse to be a part of it. Apparently some just don't learn that when their kids grow up they don't have to agree with them just because they are the parent. I'm sick and tired of them throwing accusations back and forth and then trying to gossip about it to me because I don't care what their problems are. If it's such a problem, why not talk to each other about and figure it out like adults. So I told them that I don't have a problem not talking to them for an extended period of time since they have nothing better to talk about which scared most of them in to knocking it off, though they still involve my grandparents in the drama which is ridiculous. It pisses me off because they are getting old, and though they aren't helpless, they should be enjoying this time instead of putting up with this nonsense. My grandfather said a good point though, that sometimes families come at a price. He said we weren't expecting our family to turn out like this and we did all we could to raise our kids. It isn't our fault that they didn't take appropriate paths, it is theirs.